To start with, Emily Gellis Lande vs. Tanya Zuckerbrot appeared like simply one other battle of the influencers.
As the New York Times revealed last August, Gellis Lande, a millennial trend and wonder influencer, had been exposing, principally by nameless complaints, among the alleged disagreeable unwanted effects of the F-Factor food plan, Zuckerbrot’s wellness model that has been standard with celebrities like Katie Couric and Megyn Kelly.
Beginning final spring, Gellis Lande says she started receiving lots of of complaints in regards to the F-Issue food plan—and its line of bars and powders— allegedly inflicting well being points reminiscent of cramping, bloating, fuel, and rashes, together with extra critical allegations about folks having to have a part of their colon eliminated, and accusations that F-Issue led some who used this system to develop consuming issues.
Zuckerbrot, who was referred to as a lot for her vitamin counseling as she was for posting photographs of her glamorous life on Instagram, pushed again arduous, insisting that F-Issue’s merchandise and food plan are protected.
“Not one physician of any ‘alleged sufferer’ ever contacted the corporate or spoke to the media elsewhere. These ‘victims’ by no means confirmed any proof that their signs have been attributable to F-Issue merchandise,” a spokesperson for F-Issue advised The Each day Beast.
F-Issue says that out of 176,000 buy orders since 2018, it has obtained 50 complaints about gastric misery or rashes. (A 3rd-party toxicology report commissioned by F-Issue concluded of their September 2020 evaluation that “there isn’t any proof that F-Issue Fiber/Protein Powders and Bars pose a toxicological danger to customers.”)
As a substitute of dying down, the F-Issue controversy has solely escalated during the last yr. The saga, which started because the wellness battle of the yr, has develop into full-on digital warfare—that includes doxxing, nameless hate accounts, and continuous trolling.
And now, inevitably, it’s heading to court docket, with Zuckerbrot bringing a $500k defamation swimsuit towards Gellis Lande (who has countersued). The lawsuit claims, amongst many different issues, that Gellis Lande falsely acknowledged that F-Issue workers are participating in prison exercise, that the corporate inspired pregnant girls to ingest arsenic at unsafe ranges, and that Gellis Lande falsely acknowledged that Zuckerbrot threatened to kill Gellis Lande’s household.
When requested by The Each day Beast about these allegations, Gellis Lande stated she declined to touch upon an ongoing lawsuit.
All this social media spewing isn’t occurring in a vacuum. In accordance with the lawsuit filed in October, Gellis Lande, a thirtysomething with no background in well being, has triggered devastating monetary damages to F-Issue. Their income has dropped from roughly $1 million/month to lower than $90,000/month within the time that Gellis Lande has been engaged in her marketing campaign, this based on Zuckerbrot’s complaint.
Gellis Lande’s counsel, New York Metropolis-based legal professional Henry Kaufman, advised The Each day Beast in his first media interview in regards to the case that F-Issue needs “to sue her [Gellis Lande] for posting data of nice public curiosity and concern about an excessive and standard food plan and associated to their merchandise.” He added: “It’s newsworthy data, and it’s First Modification-protected. The general public curiosity is the best ambit of free expression.”
In addition to the lawsuit, the battle between Gellis Lande and Zuckerbrot has revealed that vicious trolls don’t simply hang-out political and pop-cultural discourse, however are alive and simply as vituperative on the earth of wellness.
Zuckerbrot vs. Gellis Lande
The close-to-a-thousand complaints Gellis Lande says she obtained about F-Issue ranged from among the well-established unwanted effects of merchandise containing whey and fiber, reminiscent of rashes, hives, fuel, and bloating.
In reality, fiber is so well-known to trigger sure gastrointestinal points that one aggressive product to F-Issue’s 20/20 Powder referred to as Just Better, has “Zero Gasoline, Zero Bloating” scrawled throughout the entrance of their label. F-Issue, nevertheless, is a way of life firm with an attractive, aspirational vibe—main with flatulence wouldn’t have been very on model. Gellis Lande additionally obtained extra critical medical allegations. One individual wrote to Gellis Lande that she needed to have a part of her colon eliminated because of the F-Issue food plan. (F-Issue says their products are safe and keep the very best requirements for testing their merchandise.)
Earlier than Gellis Lande got here into the image, Zuckerbrot was a guru of kinds for a sure subset of prosperous New Yorkers who summer time in Capri and St. Tropez and might afford $1,700 vitamin counseling periods (a package deal of 12 periods prices $25,000; there are cheaper packages with different nutritionists that value $5,000 or group periods that begin at $2,500). Zuckerbrot embodies a sure Higher East Facet ethos which you can by no means be too skinny or too wealthy. Her workers was as soon as described as trying like they have been straight out of Vogue.
To get a way of her affect, grownup girls with school levels say Zuckerbrot made them afraid to eat bananas. Others have claimed the F-Issue food plan usually left them with a poor and disordered relationship towards meals. In accordance with Zuckerbrot’s e book, The F-Factor Diet, stage one of many food plan permits round 900 to 1,100 energy per day, an quantity Marion Nestle, professor of Diet and Meals Research at New York College, says is “semi-starvation.”
“There’s nothing semi-starvation about 1,200 energy a day if it’s nutrient dense. Each single well-known food plan plan has a 1,200 calorie choice.”
— Tanya Zuckerbrot
“There’s nothing semi-starvation about 1,200 energy a day if it’s nutrient dense,” Zuckerbrot responded to The Each day Beast. “Each single well-known food plan plan has a 1,200 calorie choice. For some girls, for those who’re small, that [1,200 calories] is weight administration. F-Issue offers breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a snack. And the decrease calorie section of the food plan solely lasts for 2 weeks.”
Regardless of Zuckerbrot’s success and revered standing, pockets of discontent have been lurking. Final April, the nameless gossip web site DeuxMoi, which has near one million followers and has been heralded because the web’s greatest supply of gossip, posted a declare from a former personal shopper of F-Issue saying that Zuckerbrot had discouraged her from taking antidepressants as a result of they may very well be resulting in weight achieve or retention, a standard facet impact of SSRI medicine. (Zuckerbrot told The New York Instances in August “that’s a lie and it by no means would occur.”)
“Try to be taking recommendation about medicine from a psychiatrist, not a nutritionist.”
— Emily Gellis Lande
Gellis Lande, who has used Instagram to debate psychological well being and has taken anti-anxiety medicine herself, was appalled by this accusation. “Try to be taking recommendation about medicine from a psychiatrist, not a nutritionist,” she stated.
Final month, Gellis Lande spoke on the file for the primary time in regards to the individual behind the allegation that caught her consideration and ignited her social media probe into F-Issue. In August of 2020, Gellis Lande says, a girl named Julianne Osherow referred to as her out of the blue and outed herself in regards to the DeuxMoi antidepressant put up.
In accordance with Gellis Lande, Osherow, higher identified on social media as “Jule the Bee,” was a significant supporter of F-Issue. However final spring Osherow morphed into the nameless F-Issue whistleblower who was reported about in quite a few information retailers, together with the New York Instances and The Cut. “Earlier than Julianne referred to as me, I didn’t comprehend it was her. By the point we spoke, her story simply appeared like certainly one of many,” Gellis Lande advised me. (The Each day Beast reached out to Osherow for remark, and heard nothing again.)
Issues began to get dicey, although, not so lengthy after the New York Instances Kinds part cowl story. By October, Zuckerbrot had introduced a half-million dollar lawsuit for financial damages, popularity damages, punitive damages, and injunctive launch towards Gellis Lande.
The submitting claims Zuckerbrot has endured “devastating emotional misery due to Gellis Lande’s social media conduct.” In September of 2020, the lawsuit says, Zuckerbrot was identified with “panic assaults, insomnia, and nervousness.” The submitting says Zuckerbrot has been “unable to have interaction with associates, household, and purchasers as she used to” attributable to Gellis Lande and her social media marketing campaign.
There are additionally allegations in the lawsuit that “Gellis’ social media misconduct” triggered a capital investor poised to make a $2 million investment to utterly withdraw his “capital funding in F-Issue,” which the investor group, Evolution VC Partners, valued at $40 million.
On Oct. 8, the day the lawsuit was filed, The New York Instances quoted “that capital investor” Gregg Smith, principal of Evolution VC Companions, who stated he withdrew from F-Issue “with out being conscious of any web criticism of the model from Ms. Gellis or others.” (Smith didn’t reply to The Each day Beast’s a number of requests for remark. Zuckerbrot declined to touch upon an ongoing lawsuit.)
The courtroom drama is being preceded by each day drama on social media, the place there have been accusations of poisoning pregnant girls with arsenic, demise threats, and a degree of vitriol and hate that’s often reserved for extremely contentious political points.
Zuckerbrot’s lawsuit claims Gellis Lande made a minimum of 4,500 false, defamatory, and/or harassing statements about her and F-Issue. According to the lawsuit, Gellis Lande has accused Zuckerbrot of, “promoting fucking packaged poison,” “evaluating Zuckerbrot to Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein,” and “encouraging pregnant girls to devour massive portions of unsafe elements.”
Dan Webb, a high defamation lawyer, has taken on Zuckerbrot’s case. Webb famously received the “pink slime” $177 million settlement towards Disney-owned ABC for his or her protection of a beef product. (Webb declined a request to remark.)
“Conceptually, the web would crumble for those who needed to confirm every thing posted by followers in your web site or Instagram.”
— Henry Kaufman
The timing of the lawsuit is probably good for Gellis Lande as a result of New York State has a new anti-SLAPP law that can prolong way more broadly to lawsuits primarily based upon “any communication in a public place open to the general public or a public discussion board in reference to a difficulty of public curiosity or every other lawful conduct in furtherance of the train of the constitutional proper of free speech in reference to a difficulty of public curiosity.”
One other difficulty at play is whether or not Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act will defend Gellis Lande. Initially Part 230 was put in place to immunize web corporations from lawsuits so customers might put up freely. Certainly one of Kaufman’s arguments is that Gellis Lande is topic to the protections afforded to Instagram underneath Part 230, which has been criticized by many, together with lawmakers, as being too broad. “It [section 230] is for anybody who maintains an open discussion board for dialogue on the web,” Kaufman stated.
The case might have very real-world implications, notably if Zuckerbrot prevails.
“Conceptually,” Kaufman says, “the web would crumble for those who needed to confirm every thing posted by followers in your web site or Instagram. If somebody’s followers develop into eager about a difficulty, and put up on it, are you going to close down the dialogue as a result of the host can’t function like a mini-FDA and confirm that the merchandise are or will not be protected for consumption?”
“I used to be sobbing. I used to be scared I did one thing incorrect”
It could have began over French toast.
Earlier than Gellis Lande vs. Zuckerbrot, there was Ingrid De La Mare-Kenny vs. Zuckerbrot. De La Mare-Kenny, a Monaco-based well being and wellness influencer who served time in jail for an web rip-off involving promoting denims and is the writer of the e book Fuck My Life: The Memoir of a Stylish Gangster, sells a competing product to F-Issue, a fiber powder referred to as inulin.
In 2017, De La Mare-Kenny went on Instagram and confirmed her followers the best way to make French toast from GG crackers, a sandpaper textured cracker that may be a central a part of the F-Issue food plan. (New York Journal meals critic, Adam Platt, who misplaced 40 kilos underneath Zuckerbrot’s watch, described the style of the crackers as “dried garden mower chippings.”)
F-Issue was not happy. Sean Kelley, an worker of Zuckerbrot’s, posted on De La Mare-Kenny’s web page. “You can study to take a web page from @tanyazuckerbrot. Construct your personal model genuinely slightly than steal recipes and ideas from others… Disgrace on you,” he wrote, based on display pictures on De La Mare-Kenny’s Instagram web page.
Nevertheless it was when De La Mare-Kenny, who declined to remark for this piece, made blinis out of GG crackers that issues actually escalated. Somebody claiming to be Zuckerbrot’s “greatest buddy” posted a remark insisting that De La Mare-Kenny credit score F-Issue.
After that, De La Mare-Kenny wrote to Zuckerbrot privately on Instagram providing an olive department, saying she wasn’t attempting to compete, among the recipes Zuckerbrot shared have been just like hers, and that her model, referred to as The Methodology, was by no means going to be about weight-reduction plan. “You do that [dieting] higher than anybody and I wouldn’t even come to compete in your discipline,” De La Mare-Kenny wrote in 2017. She by no means heard again from Zuckerbrot, based on somebody with direct information of the scenario.
“Tanya yelled at me, ‘How dare you go behind my again. You aren’t allowed to speak to her’”
And that’s when the trolling grew to become brutal and stays so to this present day. “Would slightly appear like @tanyazukerbrot than an overfilled and fake-accented trying hooker,” one account wrote. The trolls got here after De La Mare-Kenny’s youngsters, calling them “fats” and her son, who’s autistic, a “retard.”
In actual life, one former personal shopper of F-Issue’s named Liz says she was being directed by Zuckerbrot to steer clear of De La Mare-Kenny. (Zuckerbrot says this isn’t true.) Liz, who solely used her first identify when she spoke about her expertise with F-Issue on the Podcast Off The Gram, says she paid $20,000 for a package deal of 12 periods with Zuckerbrot.
When an F-Issue worker came upon that Liz commented on certainly one of De La Mare-Kenny’s Instagram posts, she says she was chastised. “Tanya yelled at me, ‘How dare you go behind my again. You aren’t allowed to speak to her’ [Ingrid]… I used to be sobbing. I used to be scared I did one thing incorrect. I didn’t need her to drop me as a shopper. On the subsequent session, she [Tanya] pretended like nothing occurred,” stated Liz.
Trolls, trolls in every single place
According to the F-Factor narrative, De La Mare-Kenny and Gellis Lande are a part of a “band of ladies” participating in a focused smear marketing campaign to take Zuckerbrot down. After stop and desist letters have been despatched to 6 people in late August, together with to De La Mare-Kenny, Lanny Davis, Zuckerbrot’s former counsel, said a lawyer for one of many recipients “admitted that his shopper was concerned in a focused smear marketing campaign and would cease her social-media exercise associated to the controversy.”
“She selected by no means to sentence it, together with DMs threatening to kill my household.”
— Emily Gellis Lande
Different extra intriguing issues, although, join Gellis Lande and De La Mare-Kenny. For one factor, they’re being harassed by 10 of the identical nameless hate accounts. Gellis Lande advised me that from the primary or second day she ever talked about F-Issue she received threatening messages, an identical sample and evolution to what De La Mare-Kenny has skilled. “They made up that I used to be in a psychological establishment. I’ve gotten demise threats. They have been determined to close me up,” Gellis Lande advised The Each day Beast.
“She selected by no means to sentence it, together with DMs threatening to kill my household,” Gellis Lande stated of Zuckerbrot.
Gellis Lande had sufficient hate accounts—over two dozen—to immediate Instagram, which is thought to have a very excessive bar free of charge speech towards public figures on its platform, to launch an investigation into the harassment. The Each day Beast requested Instagram to assessment the hate accounts focusing on Gellis to realize perception into whether or not they have been related or participating in coordinated harassment. An Instagram spokesperson stated the corporate didn’t discover any proof of coordination.
To find out this, Instagram seems to be at “alerts like if somebody is utilizing the identical system or telephone numbers to arrange accounts, amongst different issues,” a spokesperson for Instagram wrote in an e mail. On account of their investigation, Instagram eliminated two of the accounts underneath their coverage that disallows clean accounts arrange solely for the aim of bullying or harassing. One was Theteaoneverybody, which wrote issues to Gellis Lande like “TELL EVERYONE YOU CHEAT ON YOUR HUSBAND.”
The opposite account that was eliminated, nata.lia5645, took a extra threatening tone: “Watch out what you do in life. your youngsters could pay for it later when you’ve got any @emily or for those who’ll ever have any youngsters. Wow!!! I do not know what’s worse YOU or COVID-19.”
That trolling has prolonged even past Gellis and De La Mare-Kenny. M, a member of Reddit threads reminiscent of Blogsnark and influencercandy which featured different influencers and bloggers discussing the F-Issue drama, stated that she was trolled by @barbaraannsilverberg, certainly one of Gellis Lande’s and De La Mare-Kenny’s shared hate accounts, and at one level there have been 50 bully accounts after her. (She requested we solely use her center preliminary to guard her from additional harassment.) The @barbaraannsilverberg account was utilizing her profile image with out her permission and leaving feedback on M’s web page like: “Hey you fucking asshole INFLUENCER CANDY!!!! We allllll know who you might be so that you higher watch your again.”
One rationalization for who could be behind these accounts is they’re simply hard-core F-Issue followers—fiber fanatics who’re prepared to go to the mat for Zuckerbrot and her firm day after day, ostensibly spending hours producing anti-Gellis Lande content material.
Two of probably the most prolific accounts which have bullied each Gellis and De La Mare-Kenny are EGTruth2020 and FFactorFacts. They discuss with themselves as “accountability accounts.” In observe which means, EGTruth2020 encourages followers to boycott manufacturers Gellis companions with.
Their tone is Imply Ladies on steroids. For a lot of months through the top of the drama, they commented on virtually Gellis Lande’s each transfer, usually posting over a dozen or extra instances a day with snipes about her condo (it’s messy and small), or her nails (they’re too lengthy and a well being hazard), or her canine (he doesn’t appear as good and cute as Zuckerbrot’s canine). FFactorFacts claims to be an “unbiased F-Issue buyer [who] has by no means met with, nor spoken with Tanya, nor anybody from the F-Issue staff…neither have I been directed/paid by them.”
A spokesperson for Instagram stated neither account was in violation of the platform’s phrases of service.
“SHOW PROOF, EMILY. OR LOSE EVERYTHING. RUIN YOUR LIFE. DESTROY YOUR FAMILY.”
— FFactor Details
The accounts successfully act as Zuckerbrot’s shadow public relations groups, however ones that may be extra aggressive, defensive, and imply with the protect of anonymity. For example, when this reporter reached out to EGTruth2020 for touch upon why issues had gotten so “vicious,” I used to be accused of not believing that Zuckerbrot had been suicidal. I’m nonetheless unsure what occurred in that interplay, besides to say that the speed at which issues escalate within the Gellis Lande/Zuckerbrot nook of the web is terrifying.
Zuckerbrot follows each accounts, however advised The Each day Beast she has no thought who’s behind these accounts, that F-Issue has nothing to do with them, nor has she or anybody from her firm created a pretend Instagram account to bully or harass anybody.
Apart from nitpicking Gellis Lande’s life, the objective for each accounts is to vary the storyline and solid doubt on Gellis Lande’s credibility, motives, and the veracity of the claims she posted about F-Issue. To do that, they usually painting Gellis Lande as a mentally unstable, jealous psychopath. Threats may also be a part of their modus operandi. Just lately, FFactorFacts re-appropriated an image of Gellis Lande’s sonogram with the message: “SHOW PROOF, EMILY. OR LOSE EVERYTHING. RUIN YOUR LIFE. DESTROY YOUR FAMILY.”
The haters descend
In February, after months of being within the social media crosshairs, the results of reposting principally nameless claims outing the alleged dangerous habits of manufacturers reminiscent of SoulCycle, Alice & Olivia, and F-Issue, Gellis Lande lastly appeared to put up one thing that appeared uncontroversial.
Gellis Lande had been featured on a weblog referred to as Babe, a part of the high-end maternity firm Hatch’s web site. The New York Metropolis-based model, which sells $300 clothes, had been the one to method Gellis Lande. Hatch organized for knowledgeable picture shoot and despatched a author to Gellis Lande’s Manhattan condo to interview her. (Gellis is due along with her first youngster, a woman, this month.)
Lower than 24 hours after the weblog put up went up, it got here down. Nobody from Hatch contacted Gellis Lande to inform her why. However Gellis Lande advised this reporter she instantly knew what occurred to this seemingly innocuous piece of promotional content material. The hate accountants—there are dozens with not very refined names like emilygellisnazi, emilygellisthefatbitch, Emilygellisunraveled—had been harassing her for months through direct message and on her public Instagram web page.
That they had bombarded Hatch with feedback like: “Are you attempting to damage your online business by that includes this terrible poor excuse for a human?” as certainly one of her trolls ineedyoutoknowthis, wrote on Hatch’s Instagram web page: “One other, Annakof82, weighed in: “Is that this a joke @hatchgal? She’s endangering her child by taking a number of trip to Florida.”
A full onslaught of unfavourable feedback from Gellis Lande’s hate accounts is actually one rationalization for why Hatch tried to stealthily vanish a characteristic that they had commissioned. (In February, Hatch advised The Each day Beast that they “made the choice to take away editorial content material that featured Emily Gellis because the feedback on the put up grew to become extraordinarily dangerous and combative.”) There’s a sure irony in an organization that preaches feminine empowerment canceling one other lady for garnering an excessive amount of criticism.
Plus, it was no secret to anybody with an web connection that Gellis Lande is a pot-stirrer. She has no compunction about taking over what have develop into among the sacred cows for a subset of prosperous, white, city girls. When her followers began a dialog in regards to the misdeeds of the boutique health model SoulCycle, somebody wrote in and Gellis Lande posted anonymously: “As a fats lady, I used to be requested to be within the final row at SoulCycle.”
In her thoughts, Gellis Lande was opening up her platform to complaints about women-focused manufacturers that have been telling their clients, each implicitly and explicitly, that they weren’t adequate, however usually underneath the guise of “you go, lady” advertising and marketing. Others, notably these whom Gellis Lande has educated her eye on and people adjoining to them, didn’t view what she was doing so charitably.
After Gellis Lande adopted up on allegations in regards to the clothes firm Alice & Olivia being an “abusive” office along with her personal followers, the writer and actress Jenny Mollen, who’s close friends with one of many label’s co-founders Stacey Bendet, referred to as Gellis Lande “a brand new kind of influencer who principally creates a platform the place they discuss shit about different folks to get well-known or consideration.”
“I’ve been within the discipline of influencing speaking about scorching subject gadgets for years. I didn’t simply seem to speak about these matters. I did not know talking up for individuals who felt their voices cannot be heard could be categorized like that.”
— Emily Gellis Lande
In response to Mollen’s characterization, Gellis Lande advised The Each day Beast: “I’ve been within the discipline of influencing speaking about scorching subject gadgets for years. I didn’t simply seem to speak about these matters. I did not know talking up for individuals who felt their voices cannot be heard could be categorized like that.”
Why didn’t Zuckerbrot, even when the corporate solely believed one of many complaints Gellis Lande obtained, apologize, or pull the merchandise from the cabinets, after which restock with labeling that was clearer in regards to the unwanted effects and rising dosage slowly—notably, as nutritionists have pointed out, there may be no science for the higher restrict consumption of merchandise with added fiber?
F-Issue’s own third-party toxicology report factors out that for these not used to fiber it’s regular to expertise non permanent signs that resolve both when the individual stops utilizing the merchandise or adjusts to the rise in fiber. Within the meantime, although, the report says, they may expertise “disagreeable gastrointestinal results together with, bloating, nausea, fuel, flatulence, belching, vomiting, abdomen cramps, diarrhea, constipation, feeling too full, and dehydration.”
Put one other manner, two seemingly opposing concepts could be true on the identical time: merchandise could be protected and have disagreeable unwanted effects. However within the polarizing world of social media, these nuances get drowned out.
“I don’t perceive why Tanya doesn’t simply say she made errors, say she’s sorry, and transfer on?” stated one lady who’s acquainted with Zuckerbrot and her firm. “That might be the sensible transfer. As a substitute, she goes on the offensive, attacking everybody as liars and jealous Imply Ladies. She has stated that people who find themselves towards her are anti-woman. It’s loopy.”
“The well being and security of our clients is paramount. From the day F-Issue launched merchandise, we established a fully-regulated exterior third-party course of to answer any and all buyer complaints or issues.”
— Tanya Zuckerbrot
Gellis Lande stated she additionally anticipated F-Issue to take some accountability. “As a substitute, demonizing me grew to become their motive. Regardless of the mockery, insanity, and try to distract from the reality, the issues I shared are actual tales from individuals who felt their voices weren’t being heard,” she stated.
In response to allegations about taking accountability, Zuckerbrot advised The Each day Beast in a textual content message, “The well being and security of our clients is paramount. From the day F-Issue launched merchandise, we established a fully-regulated exterior third-party course of to answer any and all buyer complaints or issues. Each verified criticism receives a response. It’s not possible for any firm, together with F-Issue, to answer an nameless allegation,” Zuckerbrot wrote.
She added: “That stated, in an effort to proceed to teach the general public in regards to the security of our program and merchandise, F-Issue issued quite a few firm statements, printed the Certificate of Analysis for the F-Issue merchandise, printed a third-party toxicology report verifying the security of our merchandise, and created an F-Factor facts page to supply extra data.”
And so, regardless that no date has been set, the battle of the influencers now heads to court docket. Whether or not a ruling will draw a line underneath their battle, and all the net rancor that has amassed round it, stays to be seen.